This piece is a conversation between Hugo Schwyzer, a Gender Studies professor and Sex and Relationship Editor at the Good Men Project, and Nicole Rodgers, the President and co-founder of Role/Reboot. This article is cross-posted at Role/Reboot and the Good Men Project.
Hugo: Both sexes regularly accuse the other of being inconsistent when it comes to desire. Guys complain that women say they want a good guy, but then chase the “bad boys.” Women complain that guys claim to want an equal, but then often chase much younger/less educated women. These are stereotypes, of course, but there’s some truth to the suggestion that a lot of us have a hard time matching what we’re attracted to with our politics — and to what we know is good for us. Do you think this is true? And do you think it’s an easily surmountable problem?
Nicole: Yes, I think that for many men and women, what we say we want in a partner and what we’re attracted to can be very different. Who we’re attracted to is often deeply (and subconsciously) influenced by our psychology, after all, and everyone has some baggage. That’s what makes this inconsistency difficult to surmount: people often don’t recognize their own psychological issues, and without a lot of years in therapy, those types of romantic tendencies can be hard to break.
The male gripe that women say they want a good guy but then chase the “bad boys” strikes me as overstated. First of all, there are men who are attracted to rebellious “bad girl” types, too. Both men and women are drawn to the idea of taming their partner and getting them to settle down, though it’s probably a more common fantasy for women. In my experience most people – regardless of gender – are attracted to confidence, and most women would take a kinder, gentler guy with real confidence over a bad boy any day of the week. For most women I know, insecurity is the least desirable quality in a man (and very different from vulnerability). That’s what hinders attraction, not kindness, or being a “nice guy.”
In terms of the complaint women have about men – that they say they want equals but often chase younger, less educated women – I think that’s changing. While men still date and often marry women younger than them, it’s also not uncommon these days to see older women with younger men. And in terms of seeking equals, younger generations mostly choose partners pretty equal to them in things like education. You rarely hear about the CEO marrying his secretary anymore, although I’m sure it still happens. And this shouldn’t be surprising given that women are far outperforming men in education, and have been for quite some time.
Hugo: Based on your experience, do you think the inconsistency between what we say we want and what we are attracted to is more common for women or men?
Nicole: I actually think the tension may be stronger for younger women right now. The qualities we pay lip service to valuing in modern men (like being emotive, communicative and nurturing) and the men our culture heralds as sex symbols are often totally at odds. Think of that emotionally unavailable philanderer, Don Draper, or consummate-bachelor George Clooney. There’s a cultural battle being fought at the moment over the definition of manhood, and it’s reflected in the struggles of some women to match their personal politics with their desire.
There are still pretty rigid rules for masculinity after all, whereas the range of acceptable roles for women has expanded dramatically over the past few decades (perhaps with the exception of physical attractiveness, which seems just as oppressive as ever for women). Look at kids: there is no stigma anymore for girls who are sporty and athletic (“tomboys”), but its still taboo for a boy to want a play-kitchen or a doll because it violates masculine norms.
Obviously I’m oversimplifying here, but I think most straight men of my generation are attracted to women who are strong and smart as well as kind and nurturing. Women, meanwhile, seem to be attracted to men with more or less the same types of qualities they privileged decades ago – strength, professional success, and ability to be a provider are still staples. Women want new masculinity, but along with all the trappings of old-school masculinity.
I don’t know, does this seem fair to women, Hugo?
Hugo: Well, I think there are women whose expectations that are unreasonable. If you expect a man to look like George Clooney, or to pop a 5-carat engagement ring on your finger, you may need to have a rethink. But it’s a false dichotomy to suggest that men are either providers or nurturers. Men are as adaptable as women, we really are. There’s an enduring myth of male inflexibility out there, one that says we can either be sweet and sensitive or successful and stable – but not both. Just as women can “bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan,” so too men can be strong, smart, kind, nurturing. Wanting Brad Pitt is a fantasy. Wanting flexibility isn’t.
Nicole: Fair point. People often say they can’t control to whom they’re attracted. Do you think that’s true or is it an excuse for making bad choices about partners? In other words, can logic or personal politics overcome the lust or desire?
Hugo: People certainly think they can’t control what they’re attracted to, but it’s more complicated than we realize. There are some things that are under our control and others that aren’t. The reason most “reparative therapy” for gays and lesbians doesn’t work (it’s wrong to even try) is that sexual attraction is not completely malleable.
We can’t just snap our fingers and want what we want to want. Lots of us have looked at a friend and said, “Damn, I wish I were attracted to him. Because we’d be perfect together.” But as Springsteen sang, “you can’t start a fire without a spark.” You have to have that heat.
But on the other hand, a lot of us are drawn to certain types because of our own psychological issues. We go for “bad boys” and “damsels in distress” because we have fantasies of rescuing, or because we want to be with someone so self-absorbed they won’t notice how messed up we are. That sort of thing can be unlearned and changed.
I’ll also say that I think that our libido should change a bit as we age. When I was a teenager, I thought teen girls my age were hot. (I had a crush on Kristy McNichol.) I wasn’t attracted to women over 30 when I was 17. But as I grew older, I lost interest in the younger women and stayed right on being attracted to my peers. If I were single now, I couldn’t imagine dating someone under 35 or over 55 – because I’m not attracted sexually to people more than a decade or so away from my age. I know I’m not the only one who feels this way.
Does that make sense? Or is that too limiting?
Nicole: Choosing a decade as a cut off seems somewhat arbitrary to me, but I agree that our libidos should change with age. If one of my 30-something peers had a crush on Justin Bieber I would find that incredibly creepy.
Of course, there are two levels of attraction. The pure physical stuff – the lust – is the least conscious or rational part. Everything beyond initial desire is more of a conscious choice. Who we’re attracted to has a lot to do with our psychological age as well. In my experience, people who exclusively seek partners much younger than them are emotionally immature. Of course, every now and then I see a guy, probably in his early 20s, who I find physically attractive, but usually the moment I talk with him I realize how hilariously out of synch we are in terms of life stage and the attraction quickly fades. The same has been true for me with men much older than I am.
If you were to generalize about the differences between men and women, what are the biggest inconsistencies between what we’re attracted to and what’s good for us? Do you think this differs across generations?
Hugo: I think many of us of both sexes are conditioned to be rescuers, as I said. We fantasize about saving someone. Many women have the “my love can change him” mentality; it’s wrapped up in pride and ego. Doctors don’t prove their medical skills by healing the already well – and for a woman raised to be a care-giver and nurturer, a truly self-sufficient and healthily autonomous man ain’t the right challenge.
For guys, there’s often something similar: the longing to be the White Knight, the hero, the Prince Charming figure who saves someone (the manic pixie dream girl, perhaps) from a sad, self-destructive little life. For many men, this does manifest in attraction to much younger women – the longing to play the role of teacher and mentor as well as lover can be very strong. It’s almost always a bad idea and rarely ends well.
I spent a lot of time dating very self-destructive, unhappy women. I wasn’t attracted to “healthy” gals for a long time. But then I realized that the issue wasn’t just my own low self-esteem, which was obvious. It was also that I liked being with someone who couldn’t challenge me on my “stuff” because she was too busy – we were too busy – with her own pain. Once I started working on my own issues in therapy and so forth, the kind of women I was physically attracted to actually started to shift.
So there’s a bit of a paradox here: some things can change, some things can’t, and it’s very hard to discern the difference.
Nicole Rodgers is the President and co-founder of Role/Reboot, an organization created to navigate a world built on outdated assumptions about men and women’s roles and advocate ways to support the changing reality of our day-to-day lives. She lives with her boyfriend and super mutt mascot Clementine in Washington D.C. Follow her on Twitter@Role/Reboot.
Hugo Schwyzer has taught history and gender studies at Pasadena City College since 1993, where he developed the college’s first courses on Men and Masculinity and Beauty and Body Image. He was for many years the leader of the high school youth program for the largest Episcopal parish in the Western United States. A writer and public speaker as well as a professor, Hugo lives with his wife, daughter, and seven chinchillas in Los Angeles. Hugo blogs at his eponymous website and at Sir Richard’s Condom Company.
Photo credit kevin dooley/Flickr.
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