Life

Comments

• Mark
  05/14/12 at 09:18 AM #

  Men generally refuse to let women pay because women generally make disingenuous offers to pay, in order to test a man. If he accepts the offer, there is a very good chance that he will never see her again. So men pay out of fear, but still take credit for the chivalrous act under the guise of being a gentlemen, because that sounds better than saying,“I paid because I thought she was lying about wanting to pay half”. He didn’t want to roll the dice and go Dutch. Don’t blame him; blame game playing women who have made men scared to accept you as our equals.

• Grey Fox
  05/03/12 at 11:10 AM #

  I agree with the author and commenter Kathy. Despite the possibility of judgement against the man for “not being a gentlemen” (because he respected his date’s wishses), the autonomy of his date overrides tradition.
  
  Good gravy, just because sexism is cloaked with “good-ole fashioned chivalry” doesn’t mean it’s right. Lots of bad things were protected by appealing to tradition.

• what about the females
  04/16/12 at 02:33 PM #

  what would you say if the FEMALE waitress sees me and my girlfriend out on a date, never asks how to split the bill, and brings it and puts it on my side of the table? Is the waitress to blame for any assumptions here?… No scenarios are exactly the same, and neither are any humans. Two identical twins: one could forcefully rape, and one could politely date. Communication is the bridge to solve uncertainty in these types of situations. Don’t catch a tude or give lip, but voice your reasoning politely on the SECOND attempt to take a check; WAITING until the 4th shows uncertainty. If someone attempts to rape you, use the force and power inside you to fight back. You can win any battle. Whether its a guy attempting to take your clothes off, or a butch lesbian attempting to throw you in a bed. My hopes are that you are never placed in this situation, but your strength starts on the inside, and works its way out. Kick balls and rip hair.

• shut up your crazy is showing
  04/14/12 at 10:21 AM #

  Where do I even begin. First off you are clearly showing your crazy. You are over thinking a gentleman that is following good ethics. If he just wanted to get you in bed there are easier ways. Give the guy a break and stop over analyzing a nice gesture. Send him my way if your too stuck up and too “yah yah woman power.” Perhaps we should analyze your reaction. Are you insecure with your own finances and want to prove your financial independence from daddy? Accept one meal and don’t look at it as disrespectful but instead a gentleman showing that there are still a few guys who want to treat a lady.

• Dick
  04/10/12 at 10:09 AM #

  Meanwhile, chicks all over the country swoon over Don Draper. And the most beautiful women always go for the biggest asshole/jerk.
  
  Actions speak so much louder than words.

• Kathy
  04/08/12 at 07:32 PM #

  “Man don’t have an easy lot in life; they’re driven by biology and evolution to attempt to win us as mates, and most of them are doing the best they can.”
  
  Excuse me, but I do not use biology and evolution to excuse domineering behavior by men or women. Also, a woman is not a “prize” to be “won.” We are not property. We are human beings equally created in God’s image.
  
  The woman’s date was domineering. He should have graciously said, “I happily accept your offer to split the check.”

• Kathy
  04/08/12 at 07:27 PM #

  The defensive responses to this article are absolutely appalling. It just shows me that our culture is still very male chauvinistic.
  
  The woman’s date and the the waiter should have respected her decision to split the check. Period. Any man who acts that domineering on a first date doesn’t deserve to be in a relationship.
  
  This website should show men how to act when a woman wants to split the check. We need some good etiquette lessons on this issue and this website needs to provide them.

• Abigail Collazo
  04/06/12 at 11:33 AM #

  Thanks to everyone for the comments and feedback! One issue that has arisen repeatedly which I’d like to address is this question of “what he wanted from me.” I want to clarify that I in no way felt that this man was trying to get something sexual in return for picking up the check. This post does not in any way address that, it wasn’t a quid pro quo scenario, and I in no way felt that he was picking up the tab in order to get me into bed with him. That situation is in no way relevant to the broader point of the piece.
  
  Additionally, many of you have taken issue with my opinion as to why he offered to pick up the check in the first place. As I mentioned numerous times in the post, I believe he offered solely in order to be nice, gentlemanly, polite, chivalrous, or whatever else you may call it. I have no issue at all with someone offering to be nice, and as I said many times, I don’t believe this man to be a rapist (the odds, statistically, are extremely low).
  
  My point was that in pushing the matter so aggressively, and then ultimately in making the decision himself, he was exhibiting signals that he didn’t respect me or value my opinion and that since the meal was mine after all, it should have been my decision. These are red flags to me that could potentially signal bigger issues he has.
  
  I do appreciate that (most of) you have brought up thoughtful and valid responses such as the social pressure he felt under to be in control, among other things. I look forward to continuing the dialogue with those who bring up other reasonable perspectives and viewpoints.

• R
  04/06/12 at 08:15 AM #

  For the record, my elderly grandmother often “conspires” with the waiter to pick up a restaurant tab, even if you yell at her until you’re blue in the face. I’m pretty sure no one has ever accused her of secretly getting her jollies from dominating her dinner guests or disrespecting our family (or our paychecks, which are considerably larger than hers ever were). I’ve also never seen a waiter refuse to take her card.
  
   I’m not sure this social norm is a particularly good example of institutionalized sexism.

• Amy
  04/05/12 at 10:32 PM #

  What is wrong with you? You give feminists a bad name as you clearly think anything nice that a man does is trying to get you into bed. In the south, we expect men to have manners and act a certain way. Had this guy opened the door for you, was that trying to get in your pants? Had he pulled out the chair for you, was that an invite for sex?
  
  You remind me of that episode of the West Wing, where Ainsley talks about how women get hung up on the minutiae as opposed to the honest to goodness problems problems. At the end of the day you’re nothing more than Al Sharpton or Rush Limbaugh; you’re a fear mongerer. As someone who donates to NOW and Emily’s List, please know you do not speak for me or sane feminists.

• Rose
  04/05/12 at 09:04 PM #

  I understand the point of this article, but by the author’s own account of what happened, I can see how she might have confused her date. Did she say no four times? Yes, but the first few times she added misleading qualifiers! “I don’t mind paying” is NOT the same thing as saying you WISH to pay. Usually I don’t care much one way or the other about things I “don’t mind” doing. “I am happy to split it” is not the same thing as saying you WANT to split it or PLAN to split it or would feel more comfortable splitting it.
  
   I “don’t mind” doing my laundry, but if someone else offered, I’d take them up on it. I’m “happy” to do my laundry, but I’m just as happy not doing it. I think the man was in the wrong but I think the author was equally in the wrong for not being clear enough. If I was out to lunch with a female friend or coworker who was as deferential in her offers to split lunch as the author, I myself (a female) might have insisted on picking up the tab.
  
  No means no, but it can be confusing when you start with no and add deferential qualifiers that leave your intentions up to interpretation.
  

• CM
  04/05/12 at 05:08 PM #

  Wow, it’s apparently not clear that this post isn’t really about paying for dinner.
  
  I agree with a previous commenter: if he turns down one offer, he’s just being polite. If he turns down FOUR, he’s a) socially inept, b) unwilling/unable to listen, c) a chauvinist, or likely d) all of the above. Bringing rape into the post just follows the most extreme case to its logical conclusion. It’s inflammatory but so is this asshole’s little conspiracy with the waiter.
  
  As a butch lesbian, I often offer to pay the full tab on a first date. I do this out of politeness and probably to send some coded message like “I enjoy taking on a masculine role” (in case all other indications somehow failed to convey it ;)). It’s a tricky business because I absolutely believe in the equality and agency of the women I date, and certainly don’t think that as a butch I’m somehow entitled to purchase a person for the low price of a vegetarian entree and half a bottle of wine.
  
  I think it’s fine to go back and forth about it once. But after that you’re just being a douche, and your dinner date is right to wonder what else you’re a douche (or worse) about.

• null
  04/05/12 at 01:52 PM #

  Are you really taking the leap from gentleman to rapist? Unless he’s buying you jello-shots while you dance atop a bar on spring break, he is probably just trying to be polite. And just because a man finds you attractive, doesn’t mean he is conspiring with the waiter in “bro-code” to rape you. Many women will offer to split the check even if they want the man to pay, in order to not seem presumptuous, so it’s entirely possible that he thought your refusal was not in earnest. Your reaction seems pretty over the top and extremely sexist.

• Andrew
  04/05/12 at 01:42 PM #

  Honestly I think you should have offered him your reasons after the third time you tried to split it and he would not let you. Instead of relying on an already oblivious individual to, as you say, “engage with you” or “ask for your reason” you should have offered it. Whether or not I agree with some of the previous comments about preexisting dating conditions and the males generally accepted requirement to pay on a first date I believe you should also be aware of these cultural habits and prepared for them, especially if it so clearly means that much to you…

• Abigail Collazo
  04/05/12 at 01:38 PM #

  @Professor Bazz: I agree with you 100%, which is why I tried to frame the post as more of a “let me tell you what signal you are sending me” instead of a “this is what my date did wrong because he is a bad person.”
  
  I think your analogy that my desire to not be overly aggressive bc of social pressures on women being akin to his desire to BE aggressive because of social pressures on men is spot on. That is exactly the problem. I’m working on a piece right now about chivalry and this sort of expected behavior from men. In a sense, I wish they would stop. But I also know that women expect chivalry and think poorly of men who don’t exhibit it. The truth is, changing our gender roles to be more equitable is the responsibility of all of us, men and women alike.

• Travis
  04/05/12 at 01:09 PM #

  Let me say that this is a really tough situation— the do-you-pay, don’t-you-pay dilemma. Oy. I think it’s an important conversation to have, and I appreciate you raising it, Abby. I agree with a lot of Professor Bazz’s remarks but have a couple other observations.
  
  I think, as with everything else in life, context matters an incredible amount. In this case, the context is that you asked four times, forcefully, and he refused. Which is shitty. I think that showed a lack of respect for her wishes, or insecurity on his part, or both.
  
  But on the do you or don’t you split the check situation, as others have said, frankly, there are a lot of woman that would be offended if a guy didn’t pick up the check on the first date because that, like it or not, it is still the societal norm. I’ve almost always insisted on paying for the check on the first date because I’ve always thought about it as a measure of respect/consideration for the girl. I pay because I like her, and it’s what I perceive as the “nice thing to do.” Perhaps I’m wrong. And I am reevaluating that belief.
  
  But woman have to understand that it’s a tough line to walk for the 98% of guys who want to be respectful (and would never expect a quid pro quo for paying for a meal): do you risk offending by not offering to pick up the check, or risk offending by playfully insisting you pick up the check?
  
  Until the norm is, split the check, period, end of sentence this is a dilemma guys face. And at the risk of offending feminists on this subject, woman who expect a guy to pick up the check are as much of a problem as the guys that insist on doing so.

• Professor Bazz
  04/05/12 at 12:44 PM #

  I agree to an extent but your argument is alarmingly one-sided.
  
  Just as an assertive woman will likely be considered a “bitch”, a man who does not insist, even to a fault, on doing something nice for a woman he is seeing for the first time can often be perceived as selfish, “un-gentemanly”, thus making him undesirable as well. The same language of society which threatens to call you a “bitch” calls him a “cheap asshole”. Men are constantly told that women often don’t mean what they say – there is a whole popular culture built around the “mystery of what women want” – so it’s no surprise that the guy was inclined to not trust your words when you refuse to let him to pay for you.
  
  Insisting on doing nice things for women is deeply ingrained in many men, and it often does not have anything to do with power assertion, much less rape. However this isn’t true 100% of the time of course, as it’s no argument that many men do assert power with money.
  
  Once you two get to know each other better, this feeling should pass once he (assumedly a thoughtful person) realizes you’re not one of these women who expects people to pay for you even when you say you’ll pay. Who knows, he might have been incredibly nervous the entire time and wasn’t sure whether she was bluffing or not. This story is coming from one side of the table and we must consider his point of view.
  
  Let him pay if and he insists and makes him happy to pay. Hell if anyone you’re having dinner with anyone who insists that much, let them pay. If you feel it was a threatening assertion of power, then don’t go out with that person again. This even happens when guys go out with guys, if one of them insists to a frightening degree that they must pay, you don’t hang out with that dude anymore.
  
  You can even talk to him afterwards about it. If he’s a good guy he will understand and adjust his behavior moving forward, probably happy that he doesn’t think he has to pay for every entire meal anymore.
  
  NOTE: If he really did exchange a sincere “bro glance” with the waiter, then he’s probably not the type of person who will be sensitive to any of this, and you made a good move by choosing to not see him again.
  

• Februaryfour
  04/05/12 at 12:38 PM #

  For what it’s worth, I agree with Abigail in principle, but I have to say even I winced at jumping straight from “you aren’t listening to me or respecting my opinion” to “will you be the one who rapes me”. I can see why people are upset. At the same time, I definitely think men who can’t get me when I say (and more importantly, REPEAT) no are creeps and I want nothing more to do with them.
  
  I think the important thing here is to understand that there is a difference between social norms (such as fighting over the check, something we are all taught to do out of politeness, male OR female) and actual opinion/need/want, which is not borne out of politeness. A token “Oh, no, you don’t HAVE to, I can pay for myself too, you really don’t have to” once (and then no more) is politeness. Repeating “No, really, I told you TEN TIMES. I WANT TO PAY” and having that ignored? That’s a warning sign.

• quixote
  04/05/12 at 12:26 PM #

  Some of the comments have me floored. It’s just generosity? He’s just being nice? That’s why he has to do a little coded-glance-with-the-waiter thing because, jeez, people really hate generosity.
  
  Here’s how it works when it’s just politeness and generosity. Man offers to pay. Woman says “I’d rather pay my half.” He repeats offer to show he’s serious. She repeats refusal to show she’s serious. He says, “Well, if that’s what you’d like.”
  
  Insisting on paying <em>against her objections</em> can only be seen as an attempt to enforce a sense of obligation. Why would a guy on a date try to do that? Probably in the hope that she’ll be willing to lend him her collection of Japanese prints, don’t you think?
  
  Forcing payment like this is plain old rudeness. And rude people are nothing but trouble. Respect isn’t in their dictionaries. Avoid them. And since you wouldn’t be going out ever again with this jerk anyway, when the waiter brings the bill for signature, ask to see it, or reach over and take it. Then rip it up. “Now,” you say, “we’ll start over.”
  
  (But, but, but, I hear some of the commenters saying, that would be rude! Indeed. That’s the problem with the jerk’s original rudeness. There’s no way to deal with it without at some point making NO very loud and clear, which is always going to be less than pleasantly polite. One might almost suspect that’s what he’s counting on.)

• Just some guy
  04/05/12 at 11:47 AM #

  The problem is that you waited until the check was presented to you by the waiter to raise the issue of sharing the bill. You should have mentioned your desire to share the bill during the meal, instead of putting your date in a terribly uncomfortable and potentially embarrassing position of appearing cheap in front of the server and his date, two total strangers for all intents and purposes. This never occurred to you? Or would that not have made a good blog post?